Le Nouveau testament est composé également des lettres, ou épitres, que les apôtres envoyèrent aux congrégations. It seems to me that even JM’s, no matter how silly their quack, should not have any problems with it. Unfortunately Jerome is simply noting that Judith was considered scriptural in that it was referred to in the deliberations of the Council. My main thought is “So?” None of the gospels explicitly claims authorship by anyone, except perhaps in the final sentences of gJohn, which Justin does not seem to have used. But when more clues surface that allude to the Gospels being 2nd century writings, it’s a little hard to ignore in my opinion. But deciding that everything is false, or that truth doesn't matter, is not how normal people think (even if some do). If it was just one factor by itself, it could be dismissed. stupid …. Les manuscrits 3. quand j’était petit j’aimait allé au cours de cathéchisme et me posait aucune question, pour moi c’était claire le message parfait venant de Dieu m’emplissait de joie dans mon petit coeur d’enfant. Constantin von Tischendorf et d'autres savants ont commencé à étudier sérieusement les apocryphes du Nouveau Testament au 19ème siècle et à produire de nouvelles traductions. Voyons le témoignage du Chinois ancien. They are just fanatics who post whatever tickles their emotional and irrational prejudices. Il est vrai que la bible a connu des altérations, cependant l’évangélisation de la parole de vérité sur Dieu a régné parmi les nations. Le simple mot “là” remplace par “Lui” toute une philosophie. But if the name is all you have, then I won’t bother. Vous oubliez (volontairement ?) By 1859, Constantin von Tischendorf had increased that number to 64 uncials, and in 1909 Caspar René Gregory enumerated 161 uncial codices. The whole idea of a “canon” of accepted and authoritative works pre-dates Christianity and began with the development of schools of Greek philosophy. Constantin était l’empereur romain de 306 à 337 après JC . In the latter half of the 2nd century then, between Justin and Papias, and the time of Theophilus and Irenaeus, the four Gospels could have been written or compiled, correct? Tim O’Neill’s forthright blog does a valuable job in keeping us all honest, and reminding us that historical evidence rarely behaves as one might want it to.” –, A. G. Leventis Professor of Greek Culture at the University of Cambridge, “A brilliantly erudite blog that stands sentinel against the wish-fulfilment and tendentiousness to which atheists, on occasion, can be no less prey than believers”, – Tom Holland, best-selling history writer, “Tim O’Neill’s blog is a fantastic place to turn for critical investigation of commonly-held assumptions about religion in the ancient world.”, – Professor James F. McGrath, Butler University, “Tim O’Neill is a known liar …. It certainly formed a key plot element in the schlock pseudo historical thriller The Da Vinci Code (2003) and in its film adaptation in 2006. 2. La Résurrection de Jésus Christ: Histoire à sensation ou fait historique? There were plenty of Pre-Nicene references to Jesus being Divine, and even already debate about “Modalism”. Hi Tim, While the Catholics affirmed the NT canon in the 1546 as you mention, Wikipedia says "For the Orthodox, the recognition of these writings as authoritative was formalized in the Second Council of Trullan of 692" That seems a little strange to me as they didn't formally split until much later. Je ne sais pas d’où est-ce que vous avez sorti ces informations et ce faux schéma de la bible moderne qu’on tient à faire croire aux gens, mais c’est archifaux ! a tinfoil hatter …. Par ailleurs, que dire de la théologie et des croyances qui ont venu du Concile de Nicée? A manuscript called the Muratorian Canon dates to sometime in the late second century AD and was discovered in a library in Milan in the eighteenth century. Allow me to present why I think the anonymous synoptic Gospels are late 1st to mid 2nd century writings written to support Christianity. What again could this astonishing thing be like which people were so anxious to contradict, that in doing so they did not mind contradicting themselves?”. C. Tischendorf distingue quatre scribes différents qui auraient travaillé à ce manuscrit. Indeed, without being aware of the scholarly consensus, it’s obvious the guy(s) did a fine job picking the stuff that comes closest to early christianity. In 367 Athanasius wrote his 39th Festal Letter in which he laid out the current twenty-seven books of the New Testament – the first time this canon had been definitively stated by any churchman. Exactly which “sacred Scriptures” is not specified, so it’s unknown if this refers to the Old Testament, some canon of the New Testament or both. L’empereur Néron a commencé cette tendance en 64 après JC , quand il a pris des disciples de l’Évangile du premier siècle, les a attaché et fait plongé dans de l’huile pour ensuite être brûlés vivant comme des torches humaines pour l’éclairage dans son jardin du palais! He then imposed much more uniformity, but you are overstating the diversity of forms in the early fourth century. a hack …. Une simplicité puissante: quelle est l’importance du sacrifice de Jésus? Au fil des années, on m’a demandé assez souvent sur Constantin . The idea that Constantine co-opted Christianity for his own nefarious political reasons is nonsense. For example, a passage in Matthew has Jesus saying, “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church.” This might allude to Matthew being a Roman Catholic Gospel, written after the beginning of the establishment of this hierarchy to uphold the supremacy of the Petrine Church of Rome. The obvious question to ask, therefore, is why the hell “Philosophical Atheism” posted this laughable junk? He gives other texts which he says are “still disputed”; including James, Jude, 2 Peter and 2 and 3 John. Le Nouveau Testament (en grec ancien : Ἡ Καινὴ Διαθήκη / Hê Kainề Diathếkê) est l'ensemble des écrits relatifs à la vie de Jésus et à l'enseignement de ses premiers disciples qui ont été reconnus comme « canoniques » par les autorités chrétiennes au terme d'un processus de plusieurs siècles. a pseudo-atheist shill for Christian triumphalism [and] delusionally insane.” – Dr. Richard Carrier PhD, unemployed blogger. This utterly confused meme is referring to the hoary myth that the canon of the Bible was voted on at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD and even helpfully includes an image of an icon depicting the Emperor Constantine and key figures from that Council holding a copy of the Nicene Creed formulated by the assembled bishops at Nicaea. 11 also produces mud. Luke, for example, is written to Theophilus, Bishop of Antioch, who lived in the late 2nd century. It’s presented by a Black Revisionist kook, along with other pseudo historical conspiracist nonsense and some appalling grammar and syntax. Interesting article and discussion. But okay, let’s “look it up”. ... Constantin Trifan Recommended for you. Actually, given he didn’t just have Ambrose beheaded, I suspect he took his religious beliefs seriously. It took and melted a lot of elements of other faiths and philosophies. They originally circulated simply as accounts of Jesus’ life and were only given their current attributions later in the second century. Edit 23.05.17:  After making detailed critical comments on this and other pseudo historical memes on the so-called “Philosophical Atheism” Facebook group I have now been banned from the group, blocked from commenting and all my many detailed comments have been erased. Constantin est devenu le seul empereur de Rome à être victorieux dans une série de campagnes militaires contre d’autres rivaux . Lobegott Friedrich Constantin von Tischendorf, né à Leipzig le 18 janvier 1815 et mort le 17 décembre 1874 dans cette même ville, est considéré — avec Lachmann, Wescott et Hort, Gregory, ou von Soden — comme l'un des plus grands chercheurs de l'histoire du texte du Nouveau Testament au XIXe siècle. Alternatively, they point to an account by  Eusebius of Caesarea in his Life of Constantine detailing how the emperor commissioned him to oversee the copying and production of 50 copies of “the sacred Scriptures”. in G. VAN OYEN si T. SHEPHERD (ed. I tend to agree with the Constantine hijacking idea, not necessarily as his deliberate intention, but simply because christianity, like any ideology, is safer when not allied with political power. In fact, if he wanted to choose any sect to use to gain support, stabilise the Empire, harness popularity etc., then Christianity was about the worst one to choose in the early 300s. … La Bible est un mystère aux yeux des hommes,pour en décrypter on doit se detacher de l’humanité pour raprocher de la divinitè.l’homme doit devenir Dieu pour découvrir tous les secrets de la bible. That's all well and good, but when do you expect to wrap it all into a book? Does is prove that Theodosius sincerely aknowledged the moral authority of the church? Constantin I cel Mare s-a născut la Naissus, în provincia romană Moesia Superior, fiind fiul generalului Constantius Chlorus (viitorul împărat Constantius I) și al Helenei., Tatăl său, Constantius Chlorus, în 271-272, sub împăratul Aurelian, a fost membru al protectores (militari superiori în slujba împăratului) în estul Imperiului Roman, iar ulterior a ajuns tribun. Sorry, but the "hijacking" idea is seriously bad history, largely because it confuses ultimate outcomes with intent. Je ne plaide pas pour certaines interprétations et applications de la Bible chrétienne (certains étaient bons et certains étaient pas), mais que la Bible elle-même n’a pas changé. Celui qui tient compte des … Avant son règne, la plupart des empereurs romains étaient ouvertement hostiles à l’Évangile. “For example, a passage in Matthew has Jesus saying, “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church.” This might allude to Matthew being a Roman Catholic Gospel, written after the beginning of the establishment of this hierarchy to uphold the supremacy of the Petrine Church of Rome.”. It seems that the challenge posed by Marcion and other dissident groups caused the early Christians to determine which books were scriptural and which were not. The much later idea of Petrine Supremacy was based on that line in gMatt, not the other way around. These local definitions mean that there was actually no definitive statement by the Catholic Church as to the make-up of the New Testament until the Council of Trent in 1546: a full 1209 years after Constantine died. The "hijacking" idea also fundamentally misunderstands the ancient world and people's relationships with gods. “Getting history right is crucial, and noone – neither the religious nor the irreligious – should get a free ride when it comes to instrumentalising the past. which Christian books and texts could be considered divinely inspired and therefore “Scripture”, which were useful but not scriptural and which were actually “heretical”. Again, weren’t the Gospels originally written in the 2nd century? I personally don’t even think the memoirs were available for him to write about, which is why he used apocryphal texts and the Old Testament when writing about Christ’s divinity. Roman religion was a kind of reciprocal bargain – humans gave the gods honour and worship and got protection and favour in return, a little like the relationship between a patron or sponsor and their client or supplicant in many aspects of Roman society. De façon à comprendre pourquoi Rome créa la version actuelle de la religion chrétienne en 325 P.C.N., on doit comprendre ce que l’Empire romain vivait à cet époque. But this request (and another one made to Athanasius of Alexandria around the same time) simply reflects the fact that such an enterprise was so massively expensive that it took Imperial sponsorship to fund it and it seems to be one of many acts of patronage of Christianity by Constantine, not some attempt at establishing a canon of his own. Matthieu a donc construit cette histoire sans queue ni tête. “This began to be alarming. What I mean is that they didn’t just pick them out, but also actively tampered with them. This work became available in western Europe in the early seventeenth century and so seems to be where whole story came from. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. I believe you have causation reversed here. “Again, weren’t the Gospels originally written in the 2nd century? The full development of the canon took several centuries, though the basics of which gospels were to be included was settled by 200 AD at least. He made several mentions of the idea that the Biblical canon was decided at the Council of Nicaea in his Dictionnaire Philosophique (1764), noting with amusement the rather silly way the Council supposedly chose the relevant books: “Il est rapporté dans le supplément du concile de Nicée que les Pères étant fort embarrassés pour savoir quels étaient les livres cryphes ou apocryphes de l’Ancien et du Nouveau Testament, les mirent tous pêle-mêle sur un autel; et les livres à rejeter tombèrent par terre. Vous ne mentionnez rien au sujet de ces autres textes que l’on connaît aujourd’hui : les évangiles apocryphes. You just don’t know the material well enough to avoid basic errors like this one. The key purpose of the Council, however, was the resolution of the Arian Controversy over the status of Jesus as “God the Son” in relation to “God the Father” in the doctrine of the Trinity. Dans le Nouveau Testament, quatre textes rapportent l'institution de l'eucharistie : les trois évangiles synoptiques (Mt 26,26-29; Mc 14,22-25; Lc 22,15-20) et un texte de saint Paul (1 Co 11,23-26). Le Nouveau Testament (en grec ancien : Ἡ Καινὴ Διαθήκη / Hê Kainề Diathếkê) est l'ensemble des écrits relatifs à la vie de Jésus et à l'enseignement de ses premiers disciples qui ont été reconnus comme « canoniques » par les autorités chrétiennes au terme d'un processus de plusieurs siècles. But it is quite clear he was referring to the gospels. Probably to signify that they define hopefully core, binding doctrines. Eusèbe de Césarée et le canon du Nouveau Testament - Didascale Only gJohn is possibly early second century. 223-241, 1975. Why would any christian care even if it were true? Ce graphique simplifié nous donne l’exemple d’un document ancien écrit en 500 av. Constantin était l’empereur romain de 306 à 337 après JC . Difficile de résumer tout ça en 3 phrases, surtout que j’ai déjà fait de très longs commentaires, notamment sur la théologie du péché. It seems the “Philosophical Atheism” group on Facebook is going to be the New Atheist bad history gift that just keeps on giving. … And a quick Google of “Constantine + Bible” turns up a plethora of detailed links debunking the whole idea. of recent bishops to the ranks of cardinals in Rome. It also gives some approval to other, more recent works like The Shepherd of Hermas, but says they should not be read in church as Scripture. I would also point out that the somewhat shaky alliance between the Church and Rome also made it possible for Bishop Ambrose to condemn Theodosius’s killing of 7000 in 390. Que sont les Dix Commandements? Some of it references real events. La très bonne nouvelle est que, puisque les écritures sur lesquelles ces interprétations ont été débattues sont ouvertes et disponibles pour nous aujourd’hui, nous pouvons considérer les Écritures, comprendre son message et évaluer ces mêmes interprétations et croyances. Lobegott Friedrich Constantin von Tischendorf, né à Lengenfeld le 18 janvier 1815 et mort le 17 décembre 1874 à Leipzig, est considéré — avec Lachmann, Wescott et Hort, Gregory ou Soden — comme l'un des plus grands chercheurs de l'histoire du texte du Nouveau Testament au XIX e siècle [1]. I wonder if part of the problem with Christianity allying with political power arose in the 7th and 8th centuries where a fear of Islam, which had conquered much of Eastern Rome, drove the Church into throwing its weight behind Charlemagne, crowning him Emperor of what would be later called the Holy Roman Empire. the actions of Pol Pot, Stalin, etc, are a long way from the ideals of socialism) and probably other movements as well. Des célébrations chrétiennes comme Noël le 25 décembre, comment la date de la fête de Pâques est calculée, et une reprise de l’évangile comme étant contre-culturelle et vu avec méfiance par le gouvernement à devenir la norme culturelle de l’Europe en alliance avec le gouvernement, ont tous commencés avec Constantin. - AgoraVox … A vast majority of atheists, if they believed what is written here, if they did not believe that Constantine created the Bible, that Jesus wasn’t a “myth”, and that no person believed that Jesus rose from the dead, until they aggrandized his story several decades and centuries later, there would be almost no atheists in America. LES MANUSCRITS DU NOUVEAU TESTAMENT 1. Fred Baudart 59,049 views. A few of those who are devoted to the whole “Constantine created the Bible” myth have been forced to admit that there is no direct evidence linking the Council of Nicaea to the formation of the canon, so they cling to two pieces of evidence to try to salvage the idea. it's interesting, too, how close it is to "Baptist history"–Constantine and his dynasty ruined Christianity by making it a capital-C state Church and persecuted all these True Christians ever since (the Baptists naturally say they're the original, Apostolic Christianity, so their absence before the 16th century is proof of their repression, not of total nonexistence). Your email address will not be published. A synod convened in Rome by Pope Damasus in 382 AD also considered the question of the canon and, with the help of the great multi-lingual scholar Jerome, settled on the same twenty-seven books set out by Athanasius. Marcion was struck by the strong distinction made by Paul between the Law of the Jews and the gospel of Christ. The statement of the Council on this matter formed the Nicene Creed which became the basis of future Christological formulations (and the subject of later disputes on the matter). The Muratorian Canon document accepts twenty-three of the twenty-seven works which now make up the New Testament in the Bible. Le nouveau testament de Sacha Guitry (texte complet) - Duration: 1:56:47. The memoirs might have been late 2nd century. So it appears to have found its way via its publication by the Lutheran theologian Johannes Pappus (1549-1610) to Philippe Labbé’s appendix and thus to Voltaire. It seems that it can be traced to a quip made by Voltaire in reference to a miracle story of no historical value. The bible is simply a collection of stories, man trying to make sense if the world. a tinfoil hatter …. Il contient le Nouveau Testament dans son intégralité, excepté la fin du chapitre 16 de l’Évangile de Marc, du verset 9 jusqu’au 20. ), Resurrection of the Dead. I’m reminded of an old Dutch proverb: fire engine nr. Ou at-il été corrompu? Perhaps whoever is responsible for posting this meme to the “Philosophical Atheism” group was living under a rock at the time, but it was one of the claims peddled by Dan Brown as historical that attracted criticism not just from Christians but also from scholars generally. It only betrays a very modern obsession with TRVTH, totally atypical for Antiquity. The questions whether the guy(s) did a good job and which standard we use seem far more relevant to atheist me. To me it looks like sound policy. It isn’t. Marcion tried to get his radical reassessment of Christianity and his canon accepted by calling a council of the Christian community in Rome. It is also worth mentioning that Geza Vermes covered the Council of Nicaea in his book “Christian Beginnings – from Nazareth to Nicaea AD 30-325” (Allen Lane, 2012). En 325 après JC, Constantin a convoqué le concile de Nicée, la première réunion de l’empire à l’échelle de dirigeants de l’Église pour discuter de diverses controverses. Ok, so I’ve done a little bit more research since our last chat and I found this quote “The very names of the Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, are never mentioned by him [Justin]—do not occur once in all his writings.”. I still believed Jesus was a historical figure, that the NT was composed by the early Church in the late 1st/early 2nd centuries, and that belief in the Resurrection arose within a few years of the events. Je me pose beaucoup de questions lorsque je lis le dernier verset de l’évangile de Jésus Christ selon Jean. No anti-Christian snippet or meme seems to be able to get by this group without it being posted as factual, without any hint of checking its claims. You’ve got that backwards. years with no monarchy. a long and drawn out process that began centuries before Constantine and did not conclude until long after he was dead.” So later followers of some philosophical traditions developed rules by which they decided which works were genuine and which were pseudepigraphical forgeries – the word “canon” comes from the Greek κανών meaning “rule”, or literally “measuring stick”. But it seems the baseless origins and the crackpot supporters of this silly idea don’t matter to the guys at “Philosophical Atheism”. Notify me of followup comments via e-mail. The "hijack" idea is pseudo historical garbage. Ok, but would you at least agree that Christianity did not start out as just one set of beliefs, but many competing ones? Mais en grandissant le saint esprit à du refaire mon éducation mais pas dans les écrit car la bible reste original dans son entier et fiable mis à part les coutumes payennes tel que noel et les anniversaires et la prière pour marie et tous les rites inventé dans le culte catolique instauré par constantin qui tiens du paganisme et non du Christianisme car il faut etre catégorique dans cette affaire. Que chacun, en son jugement personnel, soit animé d'une pleine conviction. “….. actually agree with Irenaeus ” La Bible a dit vraie, Dieu n’a pas tout detaillé à l’homme dans la Bible, mais ce qu’Il a fait est logique, il nous revèle assez d’informations sur Lui pour que l’humanité entière sache un minimum de Lui. C’est entre le ciel et la nuit car ca change TOUT. a pseudo-atheist shill for Christian triumphalism [and] delusionally insane.”, – Dr. Richard Carrier PhD, unemployed blogger, Truth and Fiction in The Da Vinci Code: A Historian Reveals What We Really Know about Jesus, Mary Magdalene, and Constantine, Did Emperor Constantine Create the Canon?